Curse

Weezer_Blue · Aug 22, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Well if you're talking PvP, just remove the enchantments... NR, Rend Enchantments, etc.

For PvE, I don't see what the big deal is. I could understand if they were stealing all the kills or something... but it's instanced... whatever they're doing doesn't affect you in the slightest. People seem to either be complaining that it's unfair or that they can never find monks anymore... To the first, become inventive and try to solo it with your guy... Or find some place to do it. I know there are places every class can solo and get good rewards - but I'd rather not give them away. To the second... boo freakin hoo.

MagicDizk · Aug 22, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

I have been running my 85/55 build for almost two months now. Got over 150 ecto's got my FoW armor, now what? I do a run or two a day in the Under World and then switch on my FoW/healing armor and go help others in places that are hard to find monks. I bet you will start seeing more of this activity.

Algren Cole · Aug 22, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

if an ecto or a max dmg eternal bow or a shard drops for you that 3K has been turned into double triple quadruple etc etc your investment....it's called a risky investment. You get a free ride in the UW with the chance to get a drop that could net you upwards of 6 times your initial investment. Nobody forces you to pay the 3K...nobody forces you to go on a free ride team....stop complaining

Koroh · Aug 22, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Let me start by saying that I am a GW newb, but that I have played these games since the first Asheron's Call. That being said, my opinion in this matter relates to the effects of a "broken" template on the economy, not on the morality or fun factor involved in using this type of build.

One of the most common arguments in favour of keeping this (and other exploit-based) builds is that of the economy. I won't use a quote block, but I've heard claims like "it's the only way our guild gets money" and "it helps keep the prices down". This is a tune I've heard before. I heard these same arguments in the first Asheron's Call, just before the economy of that game self-destructed.

ANet worked long and hard to try to create a balanced economy. The difficulty of creatures was based on the expected equipment and skills used by the players who should be fighting them at the time. By increasing the number of rare items distributed among the playerbase, the overall effectiveness of the average player increases, and the speed at which players can level also speeds up.

In the first Asheron's Call, my first ever character reached level 17 in a few months of dedicated play. Most of us marveled at one player who seemed to shoot up levels like a rocket. While I don't remember specifics, he was 2 or three times the average player level in a game that had a nearly exponential xp curve.

Log in to AC today and you'll be level 17 before you go to bed tonight. This is called inflation, and it's a direct result of things like the Plat-exploit, or the farming of what were supposed to be rare items.

My point is that by unbalancing the rate at which the playerbase acquires rare items or cash, we are in effect destroying the balance which ANet went to all this trouble to create.

The net is full of cheat codes and trainers for rpg's. The best example I can come up with is Diablo 2. I tried a trainer to "help" me level a character because the usual rpg grind was taking too long. In the short term it was awesome. One day my character was struggling to dispatch a single foe, the next he was wading through throngs of enemies and casting their corpses aside with a flick of his heavily armoured wrist. I was a god among men and I used my powers to raze the fortresses of the damned.

Then I quit.

The challenge, the fun, and the excitement of finding new items was gone.

It seems to defy logic that in a game that drives players to improve their character in every way they can, that improving your character too much can be detrimental to the game. But it's true. Anyone who has tried a cheat knows the dissabpointment that follows the joy.

More powerful characters will chew through content faster. What should be a quest full of wonderment and exploring becomes a race to see who can get to and kill the boss the fastest.

I'll end this post with a bit of math, but I'll keep it simple because my primary is a W/Mo, and not one of you fancy caster types with your "higher learning".

If I have a sword that does 3-5 damage and you have a sword that does 3-5 damage, we'll have fun fighting against each other. The content creators can create a boss that will be a challenge to both of us, and the reward can be a sword that does 3-5 damage, but with +1 energy. Woo hoo!

With the inflated economy brought about by an exploit-template, a new player will still have a 3-5 damage sword. A new player will still be challenged - like you were - the first time he fights that boss. But you won't be. You have a max damage sword and you strike the boss dead in two swings, much to the awe of the newb standing beside you.

It's great in the short-term. You're a god among newbs and you cast the body of the boss aside with a flick of your heavily armoured wrist.

But the challenge of the game is lost. And you'll quit.

Unfortunately this is a flaw in every MOG I've seen so far. Eventually the power-players run out of ways to improve and the playerbase gets so spread out in abilities that the designers can't possibly create new content to please everyone. I applaud ANet for the level 20 cap. I also think it's very important to the longevity of this game that they keep the explosion of their in-game economy under control as long as possible.

Personally I'm going after that boss with my 3-5 sword. He's got another thing coming if he thinks he can steal supplies from those refugees!

Koroh

IlikeGW · Aug 22, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

I hope this trend doesn't get bigger.

They'll be monks charging for farming runs all over the place.

Hey Anet: maybe take a hint? The drop rates suck, and yes people still have to farm.

Sekkira · Aug 22, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Gyah, just.. Gyah. My opinion on people that charge for services in this game, such as monks charging for healing during missions etc cannot be described in english or any other language that I know of. Lets just make an understatement and say it's low.

All this build is good for imo is gathering the materials needed for Fissure Armour, then once you're done, change the build to help more in teams or delete it to free up a slot.

Audhumla · Aug 22, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

As well thought-out that post was, it overlooks the fact that most 105/55 monks do it for the financial gain. Yeah, I solo some areas with it to get some money and such, but they are still very limited. There's no way a 105/55 monk can clear the UW.

Our max damage sword works on only a few of the many many boss monsters in the game. I'm always more than happy to go on a different character, pick up a 3-5 sword and go after the rest.

Bizarro_Jesus · Aug 22, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

The thing that's worse than this?

Healer monks charging to be in a group for missions.

I got so sick of the status of healer monks (charging people, honestly? That's a crock.) That' I made a monk and leveled him up. Now I go to areas where healer monks are charging to be in a group and I then immediately say that I won't charge so add me, instead.

People shouldn't freaking charge to help others through a mission. That's really lame.

salja Wachi · Aug 22, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

hmmmm in a good miste group you do not need a monk anyway so i fail to see the relevance of this post lol.

just leave the monks at home.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bizarro_Jesus

The thing that's worse than this?

Healer monks charging to be in a group for missions.

I got so sick of the status of healer monks (charging people, honestly? That's a crock.) That' I made a monk and leveled him up. Now I go to areas where healer monks are charging to be in a group and I then immediately say that I won't charge so add me, instead.

People shouldn't freaking charge to help others through a mission. That's really lame.

/Signed, I hate freeloader monks as well. I've been known to accept a freeride, but I never ask for it, and I always offer to pay my way.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

How could something so in your face slip through into retail all together?

Stranger things have happened. Think back to Grand Toursimo 2 ( i know its not related exactly but bear with me.) polyphonic (i think) was a well respected game house after GT, and they had an awesome bug slip past them (on a console game!) there was no way to get 100% completion in that game. It stopped at 98-something. pissed off the perfectionists pretty bad.

another perfect example, Bioware, (KTOR, KTOR2, and others) had a pretty awesome problem in KTOR. There was a mission in which your crew is captured on an early star destroyer. Youre given the choice of which character to use to spring the others and escape. First time thru I chose the little rouge girl, naturally right? After she does her thing and throws the last switch the crew escapes via a cutscene, and then there is a conversation rendered with the game engine (as opposed to prerendered). I was puzzled the first time when the game seemed to lock up, so I rebooted and tried it again, from the autosave right after the final switch is thrown. Same problem, then i realize its not locked up. Its just not moving forward. I found the FAQ. Turns out that the problem was that I hadnt deactivated stealth before throwing the last switch, so the character was stealthed on the escaping ship and the othere characters were not making the requiste perception checks to realize that she was there for her to deliver her lines in the cutscene.... How does that get to retail?? Nobody Used stealth to get off the ship??

Those arent related I know, but I belive its entirely possible that Anet wasn not aware of the unintended consequences of the way things had been done. Just like when they removed XP from the arenas, did they know that lame asshats were going to bring droks and elites to ascalon arena to farm noobs who had no prayer of being competitive for faction. After all, they didnt grow out of it then.... Arenas still full of lame asshats brining things there that do not belong there, but at least they outgrow it again. So yea, i think its actually possible that its unintended. as far as why so long, that question could be asked of alot of things no?

Oh on a side note i'm flattered that so many of you felt that you needed to at least check up on this thread if not give support or try to charbroil me, I've got nearly as many views as "the frog".

Weezer_Blue · Aug 22, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Mercinary monks are just like runners. They're charging you cash for a service, and if you're stupid or desperate enough, you'll accept the trade. It's legitimate and fair. Monks who go half way through and then demand money or they'll quit need to be excecuted in the most painful way possible.

Accolon Pendragon · Aug 22, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Gyah, just.. Gyah. My opinion on people that charge for services in this game, such as monks charging for healing during missions etc cannot be described in english or any other language that I know of. Lets just make an understatement and say it's low.

All this build is good for imo is gathering the materials needed for Fissure Armour, then once you're done, change the build to help more in teams or delete it to free up a slot.

I agree with you in everything you say. I just don't get why people have to have so much money. It's useless once you get to a certain point in the game. I bought the game as soon as it was released, my first character was a Monk and I am on my third character now. I have bought pretty much everything my characters need and I didn't even need 400k to buy it all. I see no reason to accumulate large sums of gold, really.

It's sad to see people charging to do anything like that but they do it because they can and I don't really care that much about it because if people stopped paying for it, they would have to find something else to do.

For the most part, Monks are good to have in your party but you can make ends meet without one just as well. This third character of mine is a Me/E (having a blast playing it

) and I am almost at the desert right now and I haven't done a single mission with players. Not that I think that I am better than everybody else. It just usually is quicker to just get the henchies and go do your mission instead of begging for 10 to 30 minutes just to get in a group even though it usually is much more fun to play them with players.

Anyway, that's sad, very sad and I also can't see any other use for those builds besides the Fissure Armor.

Fronzi · Aug 22, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

I just wanted to quickly reply with my opinion to koroh's post. While I think that your point is completely true the difference in guild wars is that farming for rare weapons and distributing them does not lead to a prevalance of "better" weapons. The best or at least very serviceable weapons are found from collectors, very very good non-rare weapons can be found and the most expensive drops are due to their rarity of a particular graphic (ie a storm bow which is really a longbow, or a fellblade vs a longsword).

So in summary I think that farming these gold items which mostly have desirable graphics will not substantially change the quality/diffuculty of the experience. I do not know much about the drops in other RPGs but if they do increase in effectiveness of the weapon then you would be totally correct, I just don't think it applies to guild wars.

Mirra The Restorer · Aug 22, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

ok. im going to try this one more time...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

For anyone else who asked, I never stated that solo monks in UW hurts me particularly in any way. I was set up properly before monks became like penisroaches (sorry wont let me say RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO) so no I didnt have to spend huge amounts of money, but its not like they help anybody or anything but themselves, which is lame. The pure simple fact of the matter is that Protbond is broken and that build is an exploit, thus it should be fixed. It doesnt get more complicated than that.

Heh...if they dont hurt you, why do you care? Sounds like jealousy to me.

Sigh, man I'm really getting tired of having to repeat myself, I know four whole pages of posts is alot of material to expect the averge person to read, (sad) but I dont see how you think you can talk to me about what I dont know when you make a post on the thread with and OBVIOUS lack of knowledge about the conversation at hand. But here goes, I'll repeat myself just for you, feel special.

I'm not jealous.

Uh...yeah you are your just too proud to admit it.

I dont care how much money they make.

??? whats the problem then?

I'm a monk too.

Good for you?

I could do this ALL day too if I so desired.

??? what the hell kinda point is that? Ummmm im glad for ya?

We're not talking about pvp, because obviously the odds of no opponent with
debuffs are astronomical.

THEN WHY DO YOU CARE???

Its greed pure and simple that causes there to be a god damned monk convention at greneth every time we're within 1 win of favor. Its disgusting.

You are obviously jealous dude! "Its disgusting! boo-hoo!"

So now that youre up to speed, I'd hope that you'd read whats going on before you tell anyone else what they dont know again.

My final comment on your pathetic jealosy: pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

You didn't read the thread did you? Or did you read the first and last pages? A simple strip has already been beaten to death and proven as not the right answer. The bond as stated by several people (and given great examples by two people) is broken.

Simple strip beaten to death? In PVE maybe but thats the whole POINT. we dont share spaws this game is different that Evercrack and World of Grindcraft.Clarify how the enchant strip doesnt work in PVP...a ranger totally owns the 105. If you have problems with PVE, my question remains: WHY??
It doesn't affect you.

You all go for the simple answer... sorry the answer is obvious the skill is broken.

Sorry friend. Its your thought process that is broken.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koroh

If I have a sword that does 3-5 damage and you have a sword that does 3-5 damage, we'll have fun fighting against each other. The content creators can create a boss that will be a challenge to both of us, and the reward can be a sword that does 3-5 damage, but with +1 energy. Woo hoo!

With the inflated economy brought about by an exploit-template, a new player will still have a 3-5 damage sword. A new player will still be challenged - like you were - the first time he fights that boss. But you won't be. You have a max damage sword and you strike the boss dead in two swings, much to the awe of the newb standing beside you.

It's great in the short-term. You're a god among newbs and you cast the body of the boss aside with a flick of your heavily armoured wrist.

But the challenge of the game is lost. And you'll quit.

Unfortunately this is a flaw in every MOG I've seen so far. Eventually the power-players run out of ways to improve and the playerbase gets so spread out in abilities that the designers can't possibly create new content to please everyone. I applaud ANet for the level 20 cap. I also think it's very important to the longevity of this game that they keep the explosion of their in-game economy under control as long as possible.

Personally I'm going after that boss with my 3-5 sword. He's got another thing coming if he thinks he can steal supplies from those refugees!

Koroh

/applaud

TheGreatBoo · Aug 22, 2005, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I can admit it, I jumped on the bandwagon. While I did it sooner then most, I did indeed jump on. I began a smiting monk before the build was taken public, and around the shiverpeaks, I decided to pursue this build. I don't enjoy farming, it gets boring fast, and with all the nerfing, theres really no point in my opinion, but it did help me to level very quickly. That pretty much sums up why I went for it. I can't stand the monks who charge people for their services. I can't believe that people pay for them. When I do fow or uw, if I am the leader, I cover the charge. If someone else is, I pay my share. When I enter into a group, I don't run the 105 build. Instead, I run my own smite build. It baffles me why someone would run a 105 build, while in a team.

ManaCraft · Aug 22, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

How could something so in your face slip through into retail all together?

Well... how long did it take before the general public discovered the 55/105 build?

The answer to that question is a testament to the fact that what seems obvious now was not always so - neither to us, nor to the A.Net development team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Changing the energy cap on it can be compensated for. Changing the percentage would render the skill practically useless. Capping the maximum amount of damage it is allowed to protect against is nerfing protection monks and deterring the use of superior runes at all. Changing the superior runes to not stack HP penalties is blatently obvious to how much that can be exploited. Removing the skill altogether is nerfing the protection monk.

Exactly how to fix protective bond is another issue altogether, and not one that I intend to get too deep into at this time, but I will say that I've already seen a few good suggestions on how to go about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer Blue

For PvE, I don't see what the big deal is. I could understand if they were stealing all the kills or something... but it's instanced... whatever they're doing doesn't affect you in the slightest.

Ahh... back there again are we?

The argument that an imbalance only affects the individual that makes use of it only holds true in a singleplayer environment - it goes right out the window the second that player chooses to interact with others, and believe me, there are plenty of 55/105 monks that do just that.

ManaCraft

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 22, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Amen brother.

Here, I'll knock out all the flames for you in advance ok?

1) stfu noob
2.) it does what it says in the skill description so it cant be wrong
3.) it doesnt impact you or the economy
4.) I PLAY THE WAY I WANT WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME HOW TO PLAY!!!
5.) Anet wants us to do this, or they wouldve stopped us by now.
6.) stfu noob
7.) wealth is worthless in this game so why are you whining...

There I think that about covers the gamit of what fllames you can expect, how many posts do you think it will take to cover them alll?

Edit, the really funny part is those are about the sum total of the flames that were laid upon me on my thread about bandwagon monks. what? 260 posts later and 7 basic flames. I've had to repeat myself quite a bit.

Maybe it's because you either A) can't come up with any other refutes except your opinion or B) you fail to see other people's POV.

Both mean arguing with you is unproductive.

jesh · Aug 22, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sainte

While you people bitch about something as trivial as a skill, consider the big picture. Ok, you stick enchant removal in every mob, guess what, that pretty much screws EVERYONE over.

Consider that UW and other places have some ways of screwing over 55 monks.

Ataxe can interupt you, especially when they are in mobs.
Squids can drain you to 0 Energy and then remove Prot Bond
Squid can also interupt you till you die.
Coldfire own you, unless you take alot of time to kill them using Glyph of Con.

If you are bitching about this, then there are 2 explainations.

You either cant afford to make a 55/105 monk, or you made enough money and now are trying to screw others over.

Agree on point one. Enchant removal is lame in PvE. Sure, it might stop the stupider farmers until they figure out how to stack the enchants right, but all it really does in the end is the same thing as NR; that is, limit your options for skills and decrease diversity.

Point two.. I think everyone knows a good farmer can get around minor things like that.

Point three - I have enough money, and never made one. I find farming boring. The reason things need to be changed is inflation.. and imbalance. Immortality isn't in other online games..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

While I'm mentioning serious imbalances, there's a bigger game design problem at work here - the most effective way to accumulate wealth is to play solo, usually against degenerate packs of easily countered mobs, which just so happens to be the most boring way to play the game. If the reward scale was skewed so that the best way to get rich and powerful was to run missions with your friends, then you'd see a lot more people doing that, but as is you make as much if not more money and XP in a single solo underworld run as you'd make in several hours running missions with friends. I can spend 15 minutes wiping out a pack of smite crawlers and come away with a full inventory, a glob or two, and stacks of crafting materials that I salvaged to free up inventory space - or I can go and help a group through the ostensibly difficult Thirsty River mission and come away with a few Forgotton Seals, white weapons, and a hundred gold in cash. I don't even get the 1000XP reward for completing the mission again? What's up with that?

That imbalance doesn't exactly get talked about a lot, but it's a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

Peace,
-CxE

Another intelligent post by Ensign. The real problem at stake here is the rewards system implemented by Anet at this moment in time. At some point, this game went from skill and teamplay, to grind and economy exploits. I'm trying to make a protection monk right now, for group purposes. I already have a dedicated healer. I can't get my hands on a superior run from the trader, because of all the people camping it. Things have degenerated to such a sad state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

I think the ANet team has a bit of a split-personality when it comes to the economy. This game was advertised as being a non-grind game. What is grinding? It's killing the same creatures for hour after hour to get a particular piece of gear and/or a certain amount of money. So, when more gear and more money started entering the GWars economy, why did this upset the ANet team and cause them to implement any number of half-ass 'solutions'? They should have been -glad- more items were available and more people got the money to buy them quicker. That fits -exactly- with the 'non-grind' game they supposedly wanted to create.

Somewhere along the line, the ANet team forgot their own goal. Look how so many of their changes and tweaks have increased the grind factor. They've turned their back on their own vision. The question is: are they going to realize this and go back to their original vision, or are they going to keep fighting the playerbase and increasing the grind factor? Time will tell, supposedly they are going to fix the drops in a future patch, that would be a start in the right direction.

Exactly the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourning Air

I think this better illustrates the real issue here. If they change protective bond, monks will still solo... just with a slightly different build. If they destroyed monks completely to make it impossible for them to solo, people would just solo with warriors or elementalists (not UW, but countless other places). Many people will always insist on soloing because the loot over time is simply much higher that way. People say it's boring, and yes - it is! So why would people do something boring over something fun, like going with a good group can be? Because the rewards are that much better in the same amount of time.

There are other ways to combat the general issue here rather than screaming for nerfs to *whatever class can solo the best this week*. Things like lowering the amount of gold that drops overall, at the base level, then raise it for each additional person in your group, so that you wind up with a similar amount of gold whether you are in a group or not. Things like chests that have items for EVERYONE in the group, not just 1 or 2 (especially at the end of UW/FoW quests). Those are just two simple examples; there are many other ways to go about this.

The point is that it's better to do things that promote group play, rather than to do things that discourage or prevent solo play. It is always nice to have SOME option to solo, even if it were made less worthwhile than grouping, because sometimes you just want to get away from the groups or you don't have the time/patience to gather one up (side comment: there should be a better method of forming groups in this game). Now, you could argue that a place like UW should never be possible to solo either way... but truthfully, I am impressed with the creative builds people came up with to do so.

No offense to some people here, but the constant nerf posts are just sounding more and more like pointless whining. I think it's much more constructive to promote group play and give better rewards for it.

Of course, this post and others like it will mostly get ignored by the masses screaming "nerf".

I heard you, at least. Excellent post. And to the peron who said you probably all came from quake or something... I've put 870 hours now into this game. Don't talk to me about time invested. The thing that pisses most people off about the 105/55 build is that it takes no SKILL whatsoever to pull off, and an invincible character should not exist in the first place. The effects on the economy, other players, etc, are all irrelevant.

As I previously stated.. it's the rewards that people do this stuff for. Make it so you get equal/more drops/money from a full group, and all of a sudden the farming problem is gone. They could even get rid of all the stupid enchant removals, and put in some monsters that take, *gasp*, skill to beat. Teamwork and skill over grind has been lost on Anet. Maybe Verant bought them out secretly or something.